tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post7270872706726802436..comments2024-03-28T10:31:45.644-07:00Comments on Vigaroe: Warriors of the North Unit Analysis Part 5: OrcsVigaroehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02405424233776571308noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-64679919125954525892022-09-17T05:40:02.280-07:002022-09-17T05:40:02.280-07:00I was being rushed a bit when I got to this commen...I was being rushed a bit when I got to this comment, so I was sloppy, is all.<br /><br />And oh boy, I've been really looking to the DS commentary ever since this switched to digging into technical stuff. It's blatantly buggy and all-around weird just at the surface level, and there's quite a bit of slightly deeper stuff I never figured out, so I've been expecting doozies, especially with how WotN has turned out to have quite a lot of weird bugs, undocumented features, etc.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-56726881050365674752022-09-17T04:28:21.072-07:002022-09-17T04:28:21.072-07:00Like I said, Viking's classmod is 1.1, so he d...Like I said, Viking's classmod is 1.1, so he doesn't use base values; nobody does for some reason. <br />And in intended version leadership of killed stack should be 2-3 times of leadership of Hero who commands Blood Shamans, not Blood Shamans stack itself. Granted, there is not much practical difference as player usually want to have each stack at max size anyway but still. The mistake in that currently game uses Blood Shamans' leadership where killed stack's should be used. <br />I guess I'm bad at explaining such things.<br /><br />P.S. DS Orcs post in the works, but there are TONS of bugs and weirdly working things, so...Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-52502626617614187502022-09-17T03:28:08.784-07:002022-09-17T03:28:08.784-07:00And updated with all this info.
And wow is that a...And updated with all this info.<br /><br />And wow is that an error...Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-49084146555166387072022-09-04T15:17:04.194-07:002022-09-04T15:17:04.194-07:00Err... forget the part about "Which mean that...Err... forget the part about "Which mean that it's only possible for AI Blood Shamans without hero." I wrote it when I though about AI Bood Shamans' leadership maybe comparing to player's hero but it's wrong. <br />Zlogn of higher levels is only possible if we have massive out-of-control Blood Shaman stack that somehow will finish someone with Spirits of Rage. 'facepalm'Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-49991579784545505812022-09-04T15:10:30.191-07:002022-09-04T15:10:30.191-07:00Let's add more info on ZLogns.
Like I said muc...Let's add more info on ZLogns.<br />Like I said much earlier, Spirits of Rage can't created Zlogns from any inorganics, not just Ice/mechanical ones. And while it doesn't create Zlogns from Undead, it does not interfere with Undead leaving Zlogns due to Necroenergy. I saw it happen in game.<br /><br />Zlogn is cast as if by hero (Creation!). It's level is um... well, there is code for calcualting it, but for player it wll always be level 1.<br />It's code will only make level 2-3 Zlogn if Blood Shaman leadership, multiplied by classmod, is 2-3 times more than leadership of hero who command them.<br />Which mean that it's only possible for AI Blood Shamans without hero. Classmod is 1.1 for Viking/AI heroes, 0.9 for Skald and 1.3 for Volhv and is pointless currently.<br />I have a strong suspicion that it was supposed to check killed stack's leadership, not Blood Shamans', but someone mixed up things. It would make a lot of sense - bigger pile of corpses=stronger Zlogn. Sorcerous Volhv makes it easier to create, holy Skald - harder.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-69425180460703208572022-08-21T08:15:02.494-07:002022-08-21T08:15:02.494-07:00Oh wow. Updated the Veteran section of the post ap...Oh wow. Updated the Veteran section of the post appropriately.<br /><br />Totem of Adrenaline stops being buggy by just changing the *order* of calculations? Huh. I wonder what that's about.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-59621233763463494432022-08-21T05:31:19.073-07:002022-08-21T05:31:19.073-07:00I finally found the cause of ADRBUG! It's actu...I finally found the cause of ADRBUG! It's actually much simpler (and dumber) than I thought. And it's turned out to be a subturns coding mistake after all. <br /><br />It caused Veteran to evade at no Adrenaline too, so I was semi-wrong when I said about it being unrelated to ADRBUG; it's not caused by ADRBUG but they both grow from by the same mistake. <br />So Veteran actually has 7% evade chance at no Adreanline. <br /><br />Side note: unrounded numbers from Totem of Adrenaline, on the other hand, do look like deeper problem. It's code includes rounding and has no mistakes, yet you saw the result. Just reshuffling the calculations order with no other changes fixed it. Weird.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-30095683539249906472022-08-14T23:11:55.833-07:002022-08-14T23:11:55.833-07:00Huh. Updated appropriately.Huh. Updated appropriately.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-9439886444227226772022-08-14T16:53:51.096-07:002022-08-14T16:53:51.096-07:00Just in case - this is a change from AP.Just in case - this is a change from AP.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-15607769661878158402022-08-14T16:48:08.966-07:002022-08-14T16:48:08.966-07:00Chieftain's Commander also affects Ogres in ad...Chieftain's Commander also affects Ogres in addition to Orcs-the species. <br />Original description missed that too.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-26397599113975071192022-08-02T05:21:41.179-07:002022-08-02T05:21:41.179-07:00Tested Ogres for WotN, too, and though the English...Tested Ogres for WotN, too, and though the English description actually now claims it's -2 like you're saying, it still sets TO 2.<br /><br />Still updated the post, among other points to include the duration and point out Ogres actually getting nothing at Adrenaline Level 1.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-51725266766383961842022-08-01T07:29:04.410-07:002022-08-01T07:29:04.410-07:00Ah, I can see how that would get confusing, yeah. ...Ah, I can see how that would get confusing, yeah. And yeah, I was a little confused when you spoke of an Orc in the port...<br /><br />Gotten the post updated, still need to double-check Ogres and update them appropriately, but I really should get that done for AP first.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-53928731833341342272022-08-01T04:52:25.152-07:002022-08-01T04:52:25.152-07:00Yes, you are correct, my mistake. Dedication own s...Yes, you are correct, my mistake. Dedication own script doesn't care about the distance but it's targeting script does. <br />Most talents use one of default targeting types (you know, "any ally", "any enemy", "any unit" etc.) but some (like "give an ally a second turn" talents) use special scripted ones that can check thing separately from talent's own script. I check those as well but somehow missed distance here. <br /><br />Errr, when I told about "orc in the port" in the previous comment, I must have thought about AP. Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-84288062829011580922022-07-31T14:34:24.468-07:002022-07-31T14:34:24.468-07:00Alright, confirmed the ADRBUG wonkiness, confirmed...Alright, confirmed the ADRBUG wonkiness, confirmed Onslaught works point-blank (And looks very janky if used this way...), confirmed Sneer's status, confirmed Dedication doesn't work if you have too few Goblin Shaman, confirmed it's nice about using it when they're near your Leadership limit... but the range limit is still 1.<br /><br />Still need to double-check Ogres, and I'm not up to updating the post right now, but for one thing I figured you'd want to hear about the Dedication range thing.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-84411982118410301642022-07-27T08:17:31.230-07:002022-07-27T08:17:31.230-07:00Fixed all of that, yikes.
I've actually got a...Fixed all of that, yikes.<br /><br />I've actually got a file with an entire Orc army conveniently for testing, I just haven't had free time in which I was coherent enough to be confident I wouldn't flagrantly screw up the testing -and given how much I messed up on what updating I did, I think I was justified in not pushing myself to do that testing too.<br /><br />I assume Fiery Shot's insanity is a case of the person doing code tweak not having the context to fully understand the implications of what they wrote, in conjunction with playtesting not being adequately thorough to notice how bonkers it is. Warriors of the North was developed by a different team from the prior two games, for one, and for two clearly didn't get quite as much time as it really needed. Though I'll admit I have no idea WHY it got tweaked -did someone want to make the auto-kill effect work on stuff like walls, dwarven deity statues, beehives, etc, and not recognize Gremlins are part of that overall category? If so, why would that even be a thing someone wanted to do?...Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-11978290781318631002022-07-27T05:11:05.791-07:002022-07-27T05:11:05.791-07:00You still have Shaman with Totems unlocked at adre...You still have Shaman with Totems unlocked at adrenaline levels 1-2 instead of 2-3.<br /><br />You missed melee and Siege attacks for Catapult. <br />Yeah, Fiery Shot is utterly ridiculous. And it's one thing when something is ridiculous because of bugs/miscoding (Goblin Commander), and another - when it's for some reason puposefully coded to work this way, even through description shows different information.<br /><br />You still have Loner showing +5 defense instead of +8.<br />Text below it too only tells about changed distance ant attack bonus.<br />Net still can't be used against level 5 creatures. There is no level check in the talent anymore but it's effect is copied from Spiderweb, thus level limit.<br /><br />Blood Shaman's River of Blood still doesn't mention that in doesn't work on mechanical units.<br /><br />You wrote about Thread of Life not working on immune to magic and mechanicals; again, it also can't affect ANY inorganic units (i.e. Cyclops), not just mechanical ones (i.e. Droids).<br /><br />Hm, an easy way to test ADRBUG is to start a new game - there is an orc in the port.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-86579690816561650472022-07-26T04:52:04.981-07:002022-07-26T04:52:04.981-07:00Okay, finally made some time to work through... mo...Okay, finally made some time to work through... most of this. Still need to confirm the 'ADRBUG' stuff applies for me, double-check Sneer's charge vs reload status, check the Onslaught thing, check the Ogre stuff, and check Goblin Shaman's Training.<br /><br />Certainly glad to finally have an explanation for Spirits of Rage's behavior.<br /><br />And also that Fiery Shot thing is horrifying...Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-11004270014284329742022-07-21T15:24:09.258-07:002022-07-21T15:24:09.258-07:00Oh, and unlike spell version from AP, talent versi...Oh, and unlike spell version from AP, talent version of Totem of Adrenaline only lowers defense of level 1-4 units. Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-68251898186060661222022-07-21T14:14:06.183-07:002022-07-21T14:14:06.183-07:00...Missed Catapult's amusing feature - with at......Missed Catapult's amusing feature - with atleast Adrenaline level 1 it's Fiery Shot instakills not just bombs, but any kind of objects. Yes, one Catapult with 10+ Adrenaline points can instakill any Gremlin Tower. <br />As crazy as it sounds, it's not even a bug - script is clear on that it should affect ANY objects. So it's creator either forgot that Gremlins are objects (and forgot to change description too), or has very ...interesting... understanding of balance.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-69313885017262974872022-07-21T11:26:56.289-07:002022-07-21T11:26:56.289-07:00Orc Hunter's antibeast ability is a special at...Orc Hunter's antibeast ability is a special attack now. It's damage is 15-22.<br />Loner gives +8 to both Attack and Defence, like atleast original description tells. Description is wrong about required distance through - is just 1 tile now; no friends on neighboring tiles is enough to get the bonus. This is clearly deliberate change.<br />I wasted hours trying to understand why Wild Call doesn't reduce adrenalin on use. It's new script is quite long and complicated btw. The reason is actually simple; it looks like this talent was actually considered to be a base level free of cost one (like taming now) but was changed without properly cleaning up stuff. Btw it also once had chance of something that was dependant on adrenaline points count specifically (as opposed to adrenaline level). <br />Alas, Pet Revenge does not exist anymore. <br />ADRBUG: as long as you don't have allies next to Hunters, Loner is always active. Adranaline level 1 gives nothing.<br /><br />Chieftain's Sneer us reloadable (4 turns), not single charged.<br />Devs considered limiting Scold to levels 1-4 but decided against it.<br />Unlike AP version, WotN Power of the Horde deals expected damage, without unobvious rounding. It has wrong target type, which is why it can be used against allies. This is not intended.<br />ADRBUG: Devastate always deals full damage to the secondary target. Adrenalin level 1 gives nothing.<br /><br />Blood Shaman's River of Blood also doesn't work on mechanical units.<br />WotN version Spirits of Rage (Fury of Spirits in Russian) can't create Zlogn from inorganic, undead, plants or ice creatures. It does not stop undead from dropping their normal Zlogns upon death. I tested it to be sure and got Zlogn on the first try. <br />Spirits of Rage is normally animated with one hit. Each 6 points of Adrenaline above 30 add +10% to damage ( it's not shown in expected damage hint but does work correctly) and additional hit to animation to the maximum of +30% to damage and 4-hit animation (48 Adrenaline points required).<br />ADRBUG: Spirit Walker is always active. Adrenaline level 1 gives nothing.<br /><br />Goblin Shaman's Ghost Axes are indeed just free Dragon Arrow code-wise. It's resistance debuff from Adrenaline level 3 is worse than AP version as it does not work on objects, bosses and magic immune units. <br />Russian description of Thread of Life says nothing about "allies" but tells that it limited be leadership of 360 per Shaman. It was propably coded by the same person who did Goblin Catapult as there is the same mistake in using 'leadership' parameter, leading to actual leadership limit being 36000 per Goblin Shaman. 'sigh' Well, atleast it doesn't work on inorganic and magic immune units.<br />Training (aka 'Dedication') can only be used on Goblins or Furious Goblins. No Catapults. Original description is clear on this. It's also more convinient now - it can be used regardless of distance and is not limited to just "+1 Goblin Shaman"; it adds number of Shamans, equal to [caster's stack leadership]/1000. Yes, it means that stack of less tahn 9 Shamans can't use it at all. It kills 3 Goblins/Furious Goblins per new Shaman. Training will not allow the caster stack to go above hero's leadership; say, if Training can add 15 Goblin Shamans but there is only place for 7, it will add only those 7 (and will kill only 21 Goblins/Furious Goblins). <br />And I agree, animation of Curse of Ansestors is ...something. <br />ADRBUG: Spirit Walker is always active. Adrenaline level 1 gives nothing.<br /><br />THE END! FINALLY!! Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-50302638102759088912022-07-21T11:26:48.018-07:002022-07-21T11:26:48.018-07:00I hope you do not entomophobia, because there will...I hope you do not entomophobia, because there will be A LOT of bugs, incorrect descriptions and hidden meachanics here.<br /> <br />WotN version of Adrenaline itself has a serious bug: for reasons that are still not clear to me, game will ALWAYS apply any stat modifiers if they require Adrenaline level 1. This is true for stat modifiers ONLY - new abilities/talents are (un)locked properly. Code for adding bonus stats itself looks completely fine, so it must be a deeper problem. <br />As you remember, we already saw one "deeper" case - bugged resistances from Elemental Power, where code itself was fine but the game didn't allow to use the same function/parameter combo twice for the same applied effect. <br />I will mention each individual case, marked with ADRBUG. <br /><br />Furious Goblin's Irascible lasts for 2 turns, not for the rest of battle.<br />Giant Killer (for both Goblins) once again is a modifier that applies to all attacks. <br /><br />Unlike AP version, WotN Orc's Onslaught does not need a tile between the Orcs and the target. <br />ADRBUG: +3 Attack and Defense are always applied. In practice Adrenaline level 1 only gives Violent.<br /> <br />Veteran's hiring cost is 380, not 280.<br />ADRBUG: crit chance increase is always applied. Nimble isn't, but...<br />I wrote before that I saw nothing wrong with Nimble, so it shouldn't work at Adrenalin level 0. But I didn't want to dismiss your words about seeing Veteran evade attacks at no adrenaline either. Well, I think I found possible reason for this - skipping mechanical stuff, it's result of small oversight in Adrenaline system that seemingly should not matter but actually does due to how the game rounds results. If it's indeed true, it should lead to Veteran having exactly 1% evade chance at Adrenaline level 0. I write "if" because I'm not 100% sure (through it seems very likely) and I didn't tested it in-game, but it's the only possible explanation. It's not intended, of course. This is different from ADRBUG.<br />So in practice Adrenaline level 1 only gives +6% to evade chance.<br /><br />Ogre's Heavy Hand reduces speed BY 2 for 2 turns. It can't lower speed below 2 and can't lower current AP below 1. It doesn't work at all on creatures with speed of 1 or 2.<br />So, for example, creature with speed 5 will be be slowed to speed 3. <br />Creature with speed 3 will get speed 2 but it's current AP will become 1. <br />Creature with speed 2 won't be affected at all.<br />Like in AP, Ogre's Drain doesn't work on Magic Immune creatures. Unlike AP, in WotN it also doesn't work on mechanical units.<br />Contrary to in-game description, Ogre only get +1 to initiative on Adrenaline level 2. <br />ADRBUG: Ogre always deals bonus damage against soaring and flying creatures. In combination with previous thing it means that Adrenaline level 1 only gives him chance to stun. But hey, level 2 suddenly gives ton of stuff (INI, Attack, Defense and Ogre's Rage). <br /><br />Shaman needs Adrenaline level 2 for Totem of Life and Adrenaline level 3 for Totem of Death.<br />Adrenaline Control really can't have higher chance than 30%. Even if calculation had some errors or oversights, special block will reduce any higher result to 30% anyway. In my tests with full Adrenaline (40 points) it triggered 2-4 times out of 10. It almost fiscinating how not-buggy it is I guess you've just been very lucky.<br />Thirst for Glory gives just 1 Adrenaline point. <br />ADRBUG: Spirit Walker is always active. Adranaline level 1 only gives +10% to Dancing Axes healing.<br /> <br />Goblin Rage is a talent, not an ability.<br /><br />Catapult's melee damage is once again 7. Siege Gun deals 12-22 damage and, as always, have higher range than normal attack - 6. As usual, both normal ranged attack and Siege Gun have only 20% damage penalty for far range. <br />I don't think there is much point in getting exact stats for explosives, but there are still 2 of them (barrel and bomb, equal chance for either), they both have 100% fire weakness and the same damage, but one has wider range than the other. One with wider damage range (bomb) has more health and 50% physical resistance. Damage type is fire.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-57124596689373965562022-06-15T15:43:05.371-07:002022-06-15T15:43:05.371-07:00I meant a site of some kind yeah. Email would prob...I meant a site of some kind yeah. Email would probably be a bad idea because of spammers. I guess I'll go with 'Quaranyr in the comments section', then.<br /><br />And yeah okay I misunderstood the Totem comment -I thought you just meant the two different Totems of Adrenaline. Haven't gotten to this regardless, but I'll make sure to get to it.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-82843562801161297922022-06-15T05:01:11.267-07:002022-06-15T05:01:11.267-07:00I don't have any sites or blogs if you mean th...I don't have any sites or blogs if you mean that.<br />I guess I can leave my E-mail in case of someone wanting to ask something? Unless it will open gates for spammers, of course.<br /><br />In case I was unclear with AP Adrenaline Totem - by 'the same phys/poison resistances' I meant the same as other totems. It's defence is 5, like of WotN version.Quaranyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563621496147736585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-72146568153439483592022-06-14T15:09:13.896-07:002022-06-14T15:09:13.896-07:00Do you want me to link somewhere when crediting yo...Do you want me to link somewhere when crediting you?Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3656428975201272042.post-63067102322846101512022-06-14T14:01:01.546-07:002022-06-14T14:01:01.546-07:00Definitely going to be giving you credit in the In...Definitely going to be giving you credit in the Index pages, yeah.<br /><br />I'll get to re-updating the Totem of Adrenaline stuff in this post later.Ghoul Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15165232279081041131noreply@blogger.com